Curse

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

99%?!? Where did you get THAT number? I guarantee more than 1% of Guild Wars has been scammed....

Ok - prove it. You say it's a widespread problem - show exactly how widespread it is.

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I have yet to hear a decent argument against some sort of safeguard...

No, the correct statement would be "I have yet to accept any of the decent arguments against it."

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Argument 1: "It's not necessary." Obviously, something IS necessary, or there wouldn't be people getting scammed, now would there?

If people paid closer attention to what they were doing, they wouldn't get scammed, now would they? That is all the argument necessary.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

OK, darkdragon, let's keep this clean! No reason to accuse anyone of being a scammer (unless, like xxhell they admit it!)

But I agree with you 100%: More safeguards AND scammers need to be banned! (which I believe Anet does ban scammers, correct?)

darkdragon99 · Dec 08, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

who the hell els would be agueing against trying to stop scammers huh no one other than the scammers themselfs it's basic logic

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

who the hell els would be agueing against trying to stop scammers huh no one other than the scammers themselfs it's basic logic

No-one is arguing against stopping scammers. I just disagree with the idea presented. I believe that in the end, the ultimate responsibility lies with the person who is doing the trade. I don't believe that ANet is responsible to make sure that you don't get scammed. There is a good system in place, as long as you pay attendion and don't try to short-circuit it. I'm sorry if you can't understand that - but you still need to watch your accusations, and think before you type.

ozz · Dec 08, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

If you agree to a LOCKED screen where the items can't change, you have NO EXCUSE for being scammed!

I want to prevent people from offering one thing, and then switching to another at the last minute to scam people. It's a simple scam, and there's a simple prevention for it.

Mordakai, lol you nub, come on man you know the only reason you were scammed is because you blindly accepted the trade prior to verifying the contents and that is exactly what the scammer was hopin you would do.

You know this is fact and what you are proposing is for Anet/NCSoft to provide a safeguard that protects you from being just as lazy and uninterested in the trade as you were then. Perhaps I will ask Anet/NCSoft to introduce a safe house I can lay down in the middle of agro and run in there to protect me from being a bobblehead.

Mordakai, this does not make logical sense. If you were legitimately scammed when the trader had accepted and you accepted then realizing somehow what I traded in the window does not match what I saw, then there is a bug the trader took advantage of in the trade system and I agree with your rrecommendation.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Ok - prove it. You say it's a widespread problem - show exactly how widespread it is.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...earchid=969571

100 threads dealing with scams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

No, the correct statement would be "I have yet to accept any of the decent arguments against it."

That would mean there would have to be some decent arguments against it for me to accept!

(I noticed you didn't directly respond to the arguments I shot down one by one).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

If people paid closer attention to what they were doing, they wouldn't get scammed, now would they? That is all the argument necessary.

And if Anet put forth some sort of fail-safe, there wouldn't be as much scamming going on, would there?

Your "blame the victim" mentality is sickening. Guild Wars is supposed to be a new, revolutionary RPG, and yet, it can't have a secure trading system like Runescape apparently does!

That's just sad.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz

Mordakai, lol you nub, come on man you know the only reason you were scammed is because you blindly accepted the trade prior to verifying the contents and that is exactly what the scammer was hopin you would do.

You know this is fact and what you are proposing is for Anet/NCSoft to provide a safeguard that protects you from being just as lazy and uninterested in the trade as you were then. Perhaps I will ask Anet/NCSoft to introduce a safe house I can lay down in the middle of agro and run in there to protect me from being a bobblehead.

Mordakai, this does not make logical sense. If you were legitimately scammed when the trader had accepted and you accepted then realizing somehow what I traded in the window does not match what I saw, then there is a bug the trader took advantage of in the trade system and I agree with your rrecommendation.

Ah, yes, I was waiting to be called a "noob". Probably why no-one ever started a thread like this. No one likes to be scammed, trust me. It hurts my pride, yes. Yes, I messed up. But am I wrong to want to protect future "noobs" from similar scams?

I don't think so.

Oh, and comparing combat to scams is just stupid. If I die, there is no permanent penalty.

If I lose 25,000 gold or more from scams... that represents significant more harm than dying from monters!

(and yes, I realize this is "just a game." But again, the point of any game is to be fun. Where is the fun in being scammed?)

darkdragon99 · Dec 08, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

No-one is arguing against stopping scammers. I just disagree with the idea presented. I believe that in the end, the ultimate responsibility lies with the person who is doing the trade. I don't believe that ANet is responsible to make sure that you don't get scammed. There is a good system in place, as long as you pay attendion and don't try to short-circuit it. I'm sorry if you can't understand that - but you still need to watch your accusations, and think before you type.

people like you are the reason i don't trade with anyone. i believe there should be a merchant for everything cause if you get scammed your gonna get nothin but you are stupid and you should have watched closer.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

[QUOTE=Mordakai]http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...earchid=969571

100 threads dealing with scams.

Scams in general. Not only bait and switch. There are plenty more out there... And there will always be scams, no matter what anyone does to stop them...

Quote:

(I noticed you didn't directly respond to the arguments I shot down one by one).

Well - I stood by my argument. As to more inconvenient - that one is kinda moot to me. As for ANet having better things to do - that one goes without saying.

Quote:

Your "blame the victim" mentality is sickening. Guild Wars is supposed to be a new, revolutionary RPG, and yet, it can't have a secure trading system like Runescape apparently does!
That's just sad.

Wow you are pretty thick. I'm not "blaming the victim." I'm not saying that scamming is right. But come on - if you don't take reasonable precautions to protect yourself, they what do you expect? Do you walk through known crime areas wearing flashy jewlry and with cash hanging out of your pockets?

I'm just tired of the entire "Someone else has to do everything for me" mentality that everyone has. It's the same as the "I don't want my kids to watch that on TV, so the FCC should ban it" mentality. Just exercise for personal responsibility and you'll be fine. It's just like all the scams that go in in R/L - they have them on the news all the time, and tell you "here's how to protect yourself." It's not the government's job to make sure that you don't get scammed, and it's not Anet's. Sure, they can punish the scammers...but it's your job not to get scammed in the beginning! It's really a simple life concept....

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

people like you are the reason i don't trade with anyone. i believe there should be a merchant for everything cause if you get scammed your gonna get nothin but you are stupid and you should have watched closer.

What do you mean by "people like me?"

People who make sure they don't get scammed? Why would that be a concern? Why is it that you keep saying "if you get scammed you're stupid?" No-one has said that but you.

What is your problem, anyway? Is your only method of debate to insult people who don't agree with you? Call them names?

Look - let me make it very simple for you.

YOU are the only one who can make sure that you don't get scammed. No-one else can do it. No matter what you do to stop scams, new scams will be created. It's a fact of life. So it is in your own best interests to make sure that you don't get scammed. I'm all for shutting down the scammers - but it's not ANet that has to do it - it's you, me, and everyone else's responsibility to protect ourselves. Just because I disagree with the effectiveness of a particular method doesn't make me a scammer, whether you can understand that or not - to imply otherwise demonstrates a serious thought process flaw.

ozz · Dec 08, 2005, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Ah, yes, I was waiting to be called a "noob". Probably why no-one ever started a thread like this. No one likes to be scammed, trust me. It hurts my pride, yes. Yes, I messed up. But am I wrong to want to protect future "noobs" from similar scams?

I don't think so.

Oh, and comparing combat to scams is just stupid. If I die, there is no permanent penalty.

If I lose 25,000 gold or more from scams... that represents significant more harm than dying from monters!

(and yes, I realize this is "just a game." But again, the point of any game is to be fun. Where is the fun in being scammed?)

Lol, Kai, I am not calling you a Noob.

Nonetheless, Kai, I know your pride is hurt, I know you have an axe to grind, I know you are angry, and I am glad you admit you messed up, but isn't this where it ends? Mordakai was not paying attention and he was scammed! I am sure you will be more careful in the future.

However, recommending safeguards against you messing up and not paying attention is asking Anet/NCSoft to burden themselves with unnecessary programming. Now imagine you are successful. Then someone decides to request for programming to avoid the accidental sale of an item to the Merchant. Then someone asks for the ability to remove a Rune from armor without destroying the armor. Then...then....then... it can go on and on leaving Anet/NCSoft little time to program for the stuff we need like bug fizes and updates. Do you want to see Chapeter 2 anytime soon?

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

I'm just tired of the entire "Someone else has to do everything for me" mentality that everyone has. It's the same as the "I don't want my kids to watch that on TV, so the FCC should ban it" mentality. Just exercise for personal responsibility and you'll be fine. It's just like all the scams that go in in R/L - they have them on the news all the time, and tell you "here's how to protect yourself." It's not the government's job to make sure that you don't get scammed, and it's not Anet's. Sure, they can punish the scammers...but it's your job not to get scammed in the beginning! It's really a simple life concept....

If you want to go in this direction, are you saying the Police have no responsibility for protecting people from criminals? Does Anet not have any repsonsibility to at least try and stop scams?

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz

However, recommending safeguards against you messing up and not paying attention is asking Anet/NCSoft to burden themselves with unnecessary programming. Now imagine you are successful. Then someone decides to request for programming to avoid the accidental sale of an item to the Merchant. Then someone asks for the ability to remove a Rune from armor without destroying the armor. Then...then....then... it can go on and on leaving Anet/NCSoft little time to program for the stuff we need like bug fizes and updates. Do you want to see Chapeter 2 anytime soon?

Meh, I've already explained that I don't think some extra security will slow down the production for Chapter 2!

Hell, if you feel that strongly about "wasting" developers time, tell them "No more Holiday surprises!" (which would be a shame).

If Anet can't fix the problem, that's fine. I just wanted to suggest a fix, since i think one is necessary (not to help me, I'm not planning on getting scammed again!), but to help the next guy!

If my 16,000 loss helps out a fellow GWer, it's worth the price.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But if you want to go in this direction, are you saying the Police have no responsibility for protecting people from criminals? Does Anet not have any repsonsibility to at least try and stop scams?

Ahhh...now you get into an interesting philosophical discussion.

How can the police protect people from criminals? Other than just by their presence, the only real way would be to assign a cop to every person as a personal bodyguard, and one to stay with your home and vehicle to make sure they don't get broken into.

No, the only real way they can protect people is to find and lock up criminals after they have comitted a crime (to draw a parallel - ban scammers). This doesn't prevent crime, but does help reduce it. They can't actually "prevent" a crime before it's comitted (Have you ever seen Minority Report?

) However, it's your responsibility to lock your doors, try to stay out of high-crime areas, etc. to minimize the possibility of you being a victim of a crime (IE: take reasonable precautions).

(ok - this was compeltely off-topic lol)

Gargle Blaster · Dec 08, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

99%?!? Where did you get THAT number? I guarantee more than 1% of Guild Wars has been scammed....

WOW 1% --yea wow we sould act NOW!!! a whole 1% -- never mind normal game play issues 1% of the people are paying no attention to what they are trading!!! -uggh -ok now on to the line by line...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

You know, Damon, we can go back and forth on this. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. In my mind, the system is NOT ok as is. It's too easy to scam people. The safeguards mentioned on this thread would not cause inconvenience.

NO! the system does not have to change. Note: IMHO an auction house would help in trading items.

if your mind is closed to the possibility of being wrong then you are a fool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I have yet to hear a decent argument against some sort of safeguard...

I have given you plenty that you pay no attention to.

1. Time Suck -extra click on every transaction if no mistake is made.

2. Flustration -if a mistake(we are human, thats what we do) is made you must start an entirly new trade session. have you ever tryed to sell somthing in this game? it takes hours just to find a buyer...

3. Game Design -Time spent on fixing this non-issue is better spent on somthing else like an auction house.

4. Freedom -The government should not step in and help everyone pee just cause you miss the pot.

5. No Solution - there is no evidence that you extra clicking would stop any scamms at all. people continu to bait and switch the same way as before...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Argument 1: "It's not necessary." Obviously, something IS necessary, or there wouldn't be people getting scammed, now would there?

1. No Impact - life is not fair deal with it

2. No Quantifiable Impact - There is just not a large amount of scamming going on right now...

3. Not Unique - people are getting scammed in other ways - example: pushing off gold mixed dye that is missing silver...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Argument 2: "It would cause incovenience." Come on. Adding another button or another screen would not cause that much inconvenience. As I've said, it will help stop scammers, and will probably lead to quicker trades.

1. Impossible - adding steps to the trading process in no way speeds up the process.

2. Emperically False - buracreacy never makes things more efficent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Argument 3: "Better things for Anet to do". Possibly. But this is an easy fix, not like reprogramming AI, or fixing a "balance" issue. I'd rather they make a quick fix to the trading system to help poor "noobs" (I hate that word) from being exploited. I think in the end that will make more people happy for the effort spent.

1. No evidence - when you do the game programing ill listen to what you have to say about how "quick" it is.

2. Happyness is not increased with your system only flustration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

(Not to say I DON'T want Anet to work on other issues, I recognize that those issues are more complex and will take longer to solve than adding a fail-safe to the trading system!)

1. No evidence - why exactly are you qualified to determin the programing time?

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Windwalker

Ahhh...now you get into an interesting philosophical discussion.

How can the police protect people from criminals? Other than just by their presence, the only real way would be to assign a cop to every person as a personal bodyguard, and one to stay with your home and vehicle to make sure they don't get broken into.

No, the only real way they can protect people is to find and lock up criminals after they have comitted a crime (to draw a parallel - ban scammers). This doesn't prevent crime, but does help reduce it. They can't actually "prevent" a crime before it's comitted (Have you ever seen Minority Report?

) However, it's your responsibility to lock your doors, try to stay out of high-crime areas, etc. to minimize the possibility of you being a victim of a crime (IE: take reasonable precautions).

(ok - this was compeltely off-topic lol)

Actually, the way to stop crime is to invest in education and economic development to provide other opportunities for people, as well as law enforcement. But I have a funny feeling we disagree on politics as well as gaming philosophies!

But I agree with you to an extent: people need to be careful. If nothing else, I hope this thread gets some more awareness of scams, so that people watch out for them.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 08, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Actually, the way to stop crime is to invest in education and economic development to provide other opportunities for people, as well as law enforcement. But I have a funny feeling we disagree on politics as well as gaming philosophies!

Well - in theory that's the idea (hence teaching people how to look out for themselves and take reasonable precautions!) - but it's not a guarantee.

Quote:

But I agree with you to an extent: people need to be careful. If nothing else, I hope this thread gets some more awareness of scams, so that people watch out for them.

I hope so as well.

Mordakai · Dec 08, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

WOW 1% --yea wow we sould act NOW!!! a whole 1% -- never mind normal game play issues 1% of the people are paying no attention to what they are trading!!! -uggh -ok now on to the line by line...

silly, i said MORE than 1%.

Who knows the exact number, I suspect more people scammed don't want to admit it, anyway!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

NO! the system does not have to change. Note: IMHO an auction house would help in trading items.

if your mind is closed to the possibility of being wrong then you are a fool.

I am quite open to other possiblities. I've supported practically every security suggestion posted! I just think there should be MORE security to trades, bottom line. It's too easy for new players to be scammed, bottom line.

BTW, I do want an auction house. But I think an improvement needs to be made before then, esp. with all the new players who will get this game for Christmas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

I have given you plenty that you pay no attention to.

1. Time Suck -extra click on every transaction if no mistake is made.

2. Flustration -if a mistake(we are human, thats what we do) is made you must start an entirly new trade session. have you ever tryed to sell somthing in this game? it takes hours just to find a buyer...

3. Game Design -Time spent on fixing this non-issue is better spent on somthing else like an auction house.

4. Freedom -The government should not step in and help everyone pee just cause you miss the pot.

5. No Solution - there is no evidence that you extra clicking would stop any scamms at all. people continu to bait and switch the same way as before...

Time suck? Please. How much time do you waste canceling scammer trades right now? Be honest. An extra click won't cost anymore time... ("Confirm MODIFIED Trade" was one idea)

You think an auction house is as easy to program as an extra button to confirm a modified trade?
What does the government have to do with this?
How do we know what a new fail-safe system would accomplish without trying it first? I'll be the first to admit it something is broken. Right now, trading IS broken (you say yourself, it takes hours to find someone. And when you do, chances are, he's a scammer).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

1. No Impact - life is not fair deal with it

2. No Quantifiable Impact - There is just not a large amount of scamming going on right now...

3. Not Unique - people are getting scammed in other ways - example: pushing off gold mixed dye that is missing silver...

LOL at point #1. If you spent $50 on a game, and it didn't work, you wouldn't be pissed?

I have no idea how to convince you that scamming is going on. If you don't believe it, I can't help you.
Yes, i recognize this won't solve all scams. But it will help stop the most common Bait and Switch scam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

1. Impossible - adding steps to the trading process in no way speeds up the process.

2. Emperically False - buracreacy never makes things more efficent.

It will speed things up if it cuts down the amount of scammers. How many scammers do you have to go through before you find a legitimate trader?
How is an extra button or window creating a "buracreacy"? You're reaching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster

1. No evidence - when you do the game programing ill listen to what you have to say about how "quick" it is.

2. Happyness is not increased with your system only flustration.

True, I can't prove any of this. But you can't prove that adding a button or window would be a huge programming challenge, or that it WON'T make the majority of players happy!

Bottom line: As we speak, new players are being ripped off. Some simple steps (maybe even some that aren't mentioned here) could be implemented to curb such behavior.

Will it end all scams? No. But anything to save anyone some hard earned Gold in this game can't be a bad thing, especially to someone new to the whole online RPG exp.

Just imagine this is your first time trading a big item, and you get ripped off of 20,000 gold. How would that make you feel?

kimo the healer · Dec 08, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

How bout this:
Look at what your buying before hitting accept.
anet shouldn't idiot proof their transaction system. If you got scammed, it's your fault.

Mavrik · Dec 08, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

/signed

Its a great idea.

You all need to remember, there are newbies born every day who will fall to the scams some of the rest of us are smarter to avoid. Making sure that the trade can not be altered after the person agreeing to pay has submitted their agreement is a VERY good idea. And what ever your in a rush to do afterwards will still be waiting for you regardless of this extra step in the trade process.